loge.hixie.ch

Hixie's Natural Log

2006-01-20 23:32 UTC People who don't realise that they're wrong

January 1999. I'm nineteen, in my first year studying Physics at Bath University. I read an SGML tutorial (maybe this one from 1995). I wrote a testcase . I filed a bug, in which I wrote:

Comment delimiters are "--" while inside tags.

Thus: <!-- in --  -- in --  -- in -->
where "in" shows what is commented.

On the test page quoted, all is explained.

February 1999. The bug is fixed.

October 1999. The code for the fix is turned on along with the standards-mode HTML parser. Mozilla is now the first "major" browser to support SGML-style comments.

September 2000. The UN Web site breaks because it triggers standards mode but uses incorrect comment syntax. Mozilla drops full SGML comment parsing.

March 2001. Mozilla re-enables its strict comment parsing; evangelism is used to convince the broken sites to fix their markup.

May 2003. Netscape devedge publishes a document on the matter to help the Mozilla evangelists explain this to authors.

July 2003. I open a bug in the Opera bug database to get Opera to implement SGML comment parsing.

January 2004. I file another bug in the Opera bug database, having forgotten about the earlier one, to get Opera to implement SGML comment parsing.

February 2005. Håkon and I write the first draft of the Acid2 test.

March 2005. While giving a workshop on how to create test cases at Opera, I find that http://www.wassada.com/ renders correctly in Mozilla and fails to render in Opera precisely because Mozilla renders comments according to the SGML way and Opera doesn't. Over Håkon's objections, I insist on including a test for the SGML comment syntax in Acid2, citing the Wassada site as proof that we need to get interoperability on the matter. Acid2 is announced.

April 2005. Safari fixes SGML comment parsing as part of their Acid2 work. Hyatt confesses bemusement regarding this feature, joining Håkon in thinking I was wrong to insist we include this part of the test.

June 2005. Konqueror fixes SGML comment parsing as part of their Acid2 work.

October 2005. Opera fixes SGML comment parsing as part of their Acid2 work, after many complaints internally telling me I was wrong to include this part of the test. I point to the Wassada site. They point to the dozens of sites that break because of this change. I point to the fact that they aren't broken in Mozilla. They realise their fix was not quite right, and make things work, but still grumble about it being stupid.

November 2005. Mark writes a long document explaining the SGML comment parsing mode. Håkon proposes removing this part of the test from Acid2. I point out that as long as the specs require this, we don't have a good reason to remove it from the test.

December 2005. Prince implement SGML comment parsing in their efforts to pass Acid2, but privately raise concerns about this parsing requirement.

January 2006. I realise I was wrong.

I've now fixed the spec and fixed the Acid2 test.

I'd like to apologise to everyone whose time I've wasted by insisting on following the specs on this matter for the past seven years. You probably number in the hundreds by now. Sometimes, the spec is wrong, and we just have to fix it. I'm sorry it took me so long to realise that this was the case here.

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2006-01-20 07:03 UTC Tag Soup: Crazy parsing adventures

My current main project at work is writing the HTML5 Parser Specification, which is a specification of how browsers should parse HTML, including all the fancy error handling logic that up to now has been left officially undefined.

Of course, although it has been left undefined as far as the specifications go, any browser that wants to even attempt to render any useful portion of the Web quickly finds itself reverse-engineering all the other browsers in an attempt to render the existing content, because, to a rough approximation, all the content on the Web is errorneous, invalid, or non-conformant.

This reverse-engineering has been imperfect, though, since it's not exactly easy to determine how another browser works when you have an infinite range of possible inputs.

I've looked at how browsers handle tag soup before, but now that I'm writing a spec for this, I've run into a host of other issues, and I finally just wrote a tool to see how browsers parsed HTML. It shows your input, the DOM view, the rendered HTML view, and the results of the DOM Level 0 innerHTML attribute, as well as the compatMode state and what the browser thinks is the document title. It's a useful tool, because it lets you rapidly check theories, instead of having to go through the normal edit-save-reload-examine cycle.

I've found some interesting things I'd like to show you.

To explain the notation I'm going to be using, let's start with something simple:

<!DOCTYPE HTML><title>Hello World</title><p title="example">Some text.</p><!-- A comment. -->

In a compliant browser, the DOM tree would be as follows:

Hopefully this should give you a good idea of the various kinds of nodes you'll see in a DOM tree — DOCTYPEs, elements, text nodes, attributes, and comments.

Once you understand the general scheme, consider this: the markup above doesn't look like that in IE! Nor Safari! Nor Opera! In fact, the only browser that gets it right is Firefox!

IE does this:

First, it mangles the DOCTYPE node, instead treating <!DOCTYPE HTML> as <!--CTYPE HT--> (that is, as a comment, cutting the text as if it was a real comment). Then, it adds an empty implied TITLE element, for no apparent reason (the specs require implied HTML, HEAD, and BODY elements, but not an implied TITLE element).

Opera does this:

No implied HEAD element at all! It takes a perfectly compliant HTML document and makes a non-compliant DOM out of it. Oops. This can cause all kinds of problems with CSS and scripting, too.

Not to be outdone, Safari gives us this minimal approach:

That's right: no DOCTYPE, no comment. Still, on a positive note, at least what it does have is correct!

Firefox itself is far from perfect, of course. Let's explore some of Firefox's more amusing... features. First, a lone <TEXTAREA> element:

<!DOCTYPE html><textarea>

You would expect to get simply a blank <TEXTAREA> element, but in Firefox, this is parsed as:

Um. Where did that text node come from?! It turns out that in Firefox, document.close() will always just append </HTML> to whatever was passed to document.write(), whether that makes sense or not. Oops!

How about duplicate attributes? Does the first attribute win, or does the second attribute win?

<!DOCTYPE html><html id="a" id="b"><body id="a" id="b">

Will the first win, or the second? I'll give you a hint. In every other browser, the first one wins. So what do you think? The second, maybe?

If only. It turns out that the first attribute wins, except on the <HTML> tag, where the second attribute wins!

How about bogus elements?

<!DOCTYPE html><html><body><x foo bar>

Result:

We'll gloss over the mysterious _moz-userdefined attribute, because it isn't harmful (it's marked with a vendor-specific prefix, and is just used internally so that the browser and editor Mozilla components can recognise real HTML elements from bogus elements). Other than that, it makes sense. But what happens if we remove the (optional) <BODY> tag?

<!DOCTYPE html><html><x foo bar>

It does the same thing, right?

Yeah, nothing surpr— wait! Where did our foo attribute go?!

Finally let's look at what happens when you play with the <OPTGROUP> tag:

<!DOCTYPE html><div><optgroup>

The DOM is:

Curious, you might think, the <OPTGROUP> tag didn't get an element, it was just thrown away. Well, that makes sense; the element is useless outside of a <SELECT> element anyway. Let's remove the completely unrelated <DIV> tag...:

<!DOCTYPE html><optgroup>

We should just get the same DOM with the <DIV> element removed, right? Er, nope:

Don't ask me where those elements came from.

Internet Explorer is not immune from these crazy parsing antics either, of course. Take this example:

<!DOCTYPE html><frameset><frameset rows="1">

It gets this DOM:

The second <FRAMESET> tag gets dropped, but frankly that's not that surprising: around <FRAMESET> elements a lot of things end up dropped. No, what is surprising, is that if you change it like this (just adding a comma on the end of the attribute's value): 

<!DOCTYPE html><frameset><frameset rows="1,">

The DOM suddenly changes!:

There's our second <FRAMESET>! Yup, it seems that in IE, the attributes can affect what elements appear in the DOM. Go figure.

Talking about <FRAMESET>s, Safari has an interesting take on this example:

<!DOCTYPE html><body><frameset>

It does this:

I don't recall putting a style attribute anywhere! Where did it come from?

Luckily, when the parsers don't agree, it's usually a sign that no pages depend on their behaviour; so, ironically, every time I find the browsers disagreeing on how to parse some HTML, it gives me more leeway to make the spec sane. Who knows, in a few years, we might have all the browsers parsing HTML the same way! That's certainly my aim. It would make Web development a heck of a lot easier and more predictable.

Note: In all these examples I'm using the HTML5 DOCTYPE (<!DOCTYPE HTML>), which triggers standards mode. The HTML5 spec says that if you use another DOCTYPE, UAs can switch to quirks mode, in which case all bets are off. I'm not even going to try to specify quirks mode parsing. Hopefully, by making the DOCTYPE short and memorable, it will encourage authors to use it more.

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2006-01-17 23:30 UTC Memory Leaks

Yesterday was mlk day. I think it's great that this country values good programming practices to the extent of having days dedicated to solving programming problems, but it seems that most people took the day off, so I guess it wasn't that successful. Maybe everyone is using garbage collectors these days or something.

Kerz and I are still working hard on our layout. I'd love to have enough room to be able to include something like a typical mid-size yard, but instead we're having to do with just a few small industry tracks. We recently made a joint purchase of a class 602 and its intermediate cars. I'm not a fan of model passenger trains normally but this baby is seriously awesome. I used to be very skeptical of sound effects in trains. That has all changed now, though. Märklin's sound effects modules are as high-quality as the rest of their workmanship. The 602 sounds like a real train right down to the individual brake squeals. In fact now I really regret missing the chance of buying the Ae 6/6 double set which came out last summer — it had full mfx everything.

Speaking of which, kerz recently informed me that the Central Station actually is a Linux embedded system that you can SSH into. This increases my interest in it substantially.

On another note, I learnt Ancient over the weekend. Now I understand how it is that even Maybourne could read it. I wish Norwegian had been as easy for me to learn...

2005-11-29 04:47 UTC Rome, magic, steps, tanks and circles

For some strange reason, we got the end of last week off. As best I can determine, there was a surplus of turkeys in the turkey farms, and so the entire country had to be called into an emergency session of turkey eating. I've never seen this kind of thing happen before, it was weird. (Actually, come to think of it, when I was interning for Netscape there was a week in November where it seemed I was the only one working — I had assumed that there had just been some mysterious illness, but maybe it was related to this turkey emergency... It could be an annual thing. I'll have to keep an eye out next year, see if it happens again.)

Still, when in Rome...

One thing that sucks about not living in one place all the time (I've lived more than one year in four places so far — Geneva in Switzerland, the South West of the UK, Oslo in Norway, and the bay area) is that my friends are all spread all over the place. While I keep in touch with all of them, mostly thanks to the magic of IRC (and bitlbee, which makes even proprietary IM networks look like IRC), I don't get to see any more than about a quarter of my friends at any one time. And IRC isn't exactly the same as seeing them.

Looks like I'll be in Europe for several weeks at a stretch next year, though, what with the CSS working group F2F, X-Tech, and WWW2006 being back-to-back. March May might be a travel-heavy month. Hopefully I'll be able to see a bunch of friends and family at that time.

On Sunday, Pav, kerz and I set up kerz's yard. It's pretty cool. Kerz and I aren't quite sure what the next step will be, though we're probably going to get some more straight, and maybe some elevation.

On Friday I went to see Pride & Prejudice. I'm afraid to say I've never read the book, and frankly had been avoiding any exposure to it (including the BBC TV series), but I figured it was time to broaden my horizons (and the Harry Potter film was sold out). The Red Dwarf scene with the tank and the lake makes slightly more sense to me now.

It was a good story, much better than I expected, and once I was used to the language it was fun to listen to the way they phrased things. I wish I spoke more like that. It's so eloquent. It also seems that the dating scene has changed quite a bit since that story's time period. (Not that I understood how it really worked in the movie any more than I understand how it's supposed to work today, but that's another story altogether.)

Back at work I'm currently having difficulties working out how to do menus in HTML5. I don't like what's in the spec now. Lachlan made some good suggestions on the list, though. I hate being stumped, because it makes me run around in circles and makes me feel very unproductive (although of course running around in circles thinking through the consequences of possible designs is just as important as speccing out a design in the first place).

2005-11-22 00:51 UTC Your examples are still useless against the Axiomatic Proof.

Fear the Axiomatic Proof!

For it has returned! One can only hope that it is as cunning as it was "three" years ago!